After reading your post, I have to say that about a decade ago, when I was really struggling with depression, I read The Couraged to be Disliked, I applied it correctly, and Iām doing a lot better now. I did in fact deeply apply the philosophy in the book. I rejected all explanations where I blamed my past for my current decisions, and started thinking about how my behavior was always due to reasons in the present, even if those reasons weren't globally optimal. Upon reading your explanation I realized that the ideas in the book could have been communicated in a much clearer fashion, but I was fortunate enough to get what the authors were aiming for.
So I strongly reject your negativity about the idea of self-help. Reading books and absorbing different ideas certainly does change your life. If people were incapable of self-help, no one in a bad situation would get out of it ā all life changes ultimately come from within.
ooooo. checking first: did this growth happen to coincide with major positive change of life circumstances? eg mitigating a major health issue, becoming financially independent, moving away, etc?
Ack, the confounders! There was a major move for a new job, yes. I think changing my cognition was necessary for that large change to become a success, and I relied on the book's lessons heavily to encourage myself to adapt better. But it's quite possible things would have gone similarly well without the book.
I really liked the book "The courage to be disliked", despite its flaws, it still brought me so much interesting and worthwhile perspectives on human (my own own) behavior.
Nice suggestions. I also believe that the local minimum is such a good way to explain how people can be stuck. Because they HAVE good strategies, they are just more short term, and they have good reasons to want to avoid hurt. But climbing the hill can lead to greener pastures.
This is such a great post, especially in acknowledging the limitations of unnecessarily hostile framings. The LessWrong links were also illuminating; lovely work
Awesome post. This is such a strange book, deep insights and good ideas encased in such a thick, opaque shell, that you either bounce off of it and become a vocal hater, or are so desperate to steelman and understand its ideas that you actually crack through to the diamond at the center, only to find that 1. precious few others are willing to do all that work, and 2. the diamond is far from practical, its mostly glittery, but if you can fashion it into a tool it is pretty damn solid.
Loved this post, you got a new subscriber! I felt much of the same when I read the book the first time. I agreed with what I thought the book was trying to say, but I also felt like I had objections or at least I felt annoyed/triggered by the way it was saying it, and I had to do a lot of thinking in my own time to find what I liked and what I didnāt like. The second time I tried to read it I didnāt finish it because I was looking for more practical advice and I was still annoyed by the wording of the book and I didnāt want to put up with it. I really liked your analysis of what worked and what didnāt work in the book, and I think your improvements would help it reach a much wider audience and be more helpful for myself too!
loved this post as someone who read the courage to be disliked many years ago, thought it was super profound on an āintellectualā level and then was subsequently unable to integrate anything it said into my life
wow 7 times. i read it last fall and went back for highlights on some sections that were confusing to me, especially community feeling and how it's altruistic to be selfish. this is a great summary of main points that i wish i had to send to people!
teleology and separation of tasks were probably my biggest takeaways. i think 'choosing to be present' is not actually a point that the book makes but, at least for me, was downstream of applying separation of tasks to problems (all problems are interpersonal problems), and sprinkles of teleology when i was feeling upset. those two things are all you need i think
i agree that neither of these things is as absolute as the book makes it out to be. back in march i think i was extremely zen and perhaps took separation of tasks to far, and like you tried to teach it to people. and since early this year i've adjusted to applying them with less certainty than before.
like the ideas here a lot though, even if it's written a bit shabby.
One concept that's definitely stuck with me from the book and is growing with me is the idea of separating tasks. Very good, very glad to have words for this important thing.
Iāve never read TCTBD but this post made me want to (subject to your rewrites ofc). I almost immediately intuitively felt the truth in the sentence that almost all our problems are just interpersonal problems. I truly think this is the case for most people in the western world who arenāt subject to the fears for food and safety from violence. I can trace almost all of my problems to the feelings I want from other people. In a way thatās frustrating - to see how self imposed my problems are. But in a way it is also freeing because I have a lot more autonomy than I thought
Any issue can have any incentives, but the most common Iāve seen for learned helplessness are things like feeling undeserving of getting better, that getting better will lead to social retribution, or that it will fail and result in shame
Learned helplessness serves the function of allowing a person to have some acceptance/peace of living in a bad situation that they are not ready to disrupt. Theres a comfort in feeling bad for yourself, mad at the world/others etc, because you believe you are trapped in a situation outside your control. Sometimes people adopt this because the risks of changing the bad situation are genuinely too high at the moment to accept it could be worth pursuing a change until later.
After reading your post, I have to say that about a decade ago, when I was really struggling with depression, I read The Couraged to be Disliked, I applied it correctly, and Iām doing a lot better now. I did in fact deeply apply the philosophy in the book. I rejected all explanations where I blamed my past for my current decisions, and started thinking about how my behavior was always due to reasons in the present, even if those reasons weren't globally optimal. Upon reading your explanation I realized that the ideas in the book could have been communicated in a much clearer fashion, but I was fortunate enough to get what the authors were aiming for.
So I strongly reject your negativity about the idea of self-help. Reading books and absorbing different ideas certainly does change your life. If people were incapable of self-help, no one in a bad situation would get out of it ā all life changes ultimately come from within.
ooooo. checking first: did this growth happen to coincide with major positive change of life circumstances? eg mitigating a major health issue, becoming financially independent, moving away, etc?
Ack, the confounders! There was a major move for a new job, yes. I think changing my cognition was necessary for that large change to become a success, and I relied on the book's lessons heavily to encourage myself to adapt better. But it's quite possible things would have gone similarly well without the book.
it's possible the move made you extra susceptible to the book tbf, but yeah unclear if it would've helped without significant life changes
I really liked the book "The courage to be disliked", despite its flaws, it still brought me so much interesting and worthwhile perspectives on human (my own own) behavior.
Nice suggestions. I also believe that the local minimum is such a good way to explain how people can be stuck. Because they HAVE good strategies, they are just more short term, and they have good reasons to want to avoid hurt. But climbing the hill can lead to greener pastures.
Thanks for sharing your views in this book!
This is such a great post, especially in acknowledging the limitations of unnecessarily hostile framings. The LessWrong links were also illuminating; lovely work
Awesome post. This is such a strange book, deep insights and good ideas encased in such a thick, opaque shell, that you either bounce off of it and become a vocal hater, or are so desperate to steelman and understand its ideas that you actually crack through to the diamond at the center, only to find that 1. precious few others are willing to do all that work, and 2. the diamond is far from practical, its mostly glittery, but if you can fashion it into a tool it is pretty damn solid.
Loved this post, you got a new subscriber! I felt much of the same when I read the book the first time. I agreed with what I thought the book was trying to say, but I also felt like I had objections or at least I felt annoyed/triggered by the way it was saying it, and I had to do a lot of thinking in my own time to find what I liked and what I didnāt like. The second time I tried to read it I didnāt finish it because I was looking for more practical advice and I was still annoyed by the wording of the book and I didnāt want to put up with it. I really liked your analysis of what worked and what didnāt work in the book, and I think your improvements would help it reach a much wider audience and be more helpful for myself too!
love the care and thought put into this post āĀ very curious to see where the 'personal growth skill tree' goes next
loved this post as someone who read the courage to be disliked many years ago, thought it was super profound on an āintellectualā level and then was subsequently unable to integrate anything it said into my life
Damn, this is really good. I wish I had read it four months agoāit would have saved me a lot of heartache.
wow 7 times. i read it last fall and went back for highlights on some sections that were confusing to me, especially community feeling and how it's altruistic to be selfish. this is a great summary of main points that i wish i had to send to people!
teleology and separation of tasks were probably my biggest takeaways. i think 'choosing to be present' is not actually a point that the book makes but, at least for me, was downstream of applying separation of tasks to problems (all problems are interpersonal problems), and sprinkles of teleology when i was feeling upset. those two things are all you need i think
i agree that neither of these things is as absolute as the book makes it out to be. back in march i think i was extremely zen and perhaps took separation of tasks to far, and like you tried to teach it to people. and since early this year i've adjusted to applying them with less certainty than before.
like the ideas here a lot though, even if it's written a bit shabby.
One concept that's definitely stuck with me from the book and is growing with me is the idea of separating tasks. Very good, very glad to have words for this important thing.
Iāve never read TCTBD but this post made me want to (subject to your rewrites ofc). I almost immediately intuitively felt the truth in the sentence that almost all our problems are just interpersonal problems. I truly think this is the case for most people in the western world who arenāt subject to the fears for food and safety from violence. I can trace almost all of my problems to the feelings I want from other people. In a way thatās frustrating - to see how self imposed my problems are. But in a way it is also freeing because I have a lot more autonomy than I thought
Any issue can have any incentives, but the most common Iāve seen for learned helplessness are things like feeling undeserving of getting better, that getting better will lead to social retribution, or that it will fail and result in shame
Learned helplessness serves the function of allowing a person to have some acceptance/peace of living in a bad situation that they are not ready to disrupt. Theres a comfort in feeling bad for yourself, mad at the world/others etc, because you believe you are trapped in a situation outside your control. Sometimes people adopt this because the risks of changing the bad situation are genuinely too high at the moment to accept it could be worth pursuing a change until later.